SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

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pocketyacht
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by pocketyacht »

Hi Fred
If I may chime in. Ladders do work to get into a small boat, the world knows this. However one must ask other than a calm day out for a swim when would I need a ladder to get back in? When conditions are challenging (windy) causing a capsize. Then its another matter all together.

Many experienced small boat sailors know this is a very different scenario. Respectfully I believe Roger is spot in in his statement. In wind if you try to go up over the transom all bets are off. I fancy myself as a physically fit person and know I would be in trouble with a transom ladder in conditions that caused a capsize. The boat, any small boat I am trying to re-enter will turn down wind and start sailing even if the sheet is not cleated. If it begins to sail then getting up on the ladder will be very difficult due to drag on my torso and legs this makes for a very difficult task and potential to drop back in the water and if I drop back in and lose my grip the boat will get away. This is not conjecture or guess, this is experience speaking.

I have sailed Mirror Dinghies for many years and know the transom is how you get back in. However the Mirror is a vastly different boat than a SCAMP as it has a very low transom (no ladder needed) thus the transom is the way to re-enter. It works because the boats freeboard is so low. SCAMP is very high aft and this means the sailor will have to get his/her weight up high as they come in while the boat is turning and sailing off down wind, or will possibly capsize again, scary stuff.

I'll do my best to write up a short description today.........I say this here at 6am knowing full well I have a boat building class about to begin day two and that means another 12-16 hour day. I will try though as this is an important topic for the approximate 300 SCAMP plans and kit builders worldwide.

So Fred don't give up your ladder but please incorporate a means for reliable re-entry when conditions have caused the need for it.

Best,
howard
fred4win wrote:Yes Howard.... you have me all ears and eyes as well as Ken...I will be watching for this to be posted asap...Like many other things that we talk about I am a person of doing it now rather than later....It sounds so very interesting...I am always on the look out for improvement....

Roger I don't agree with your statement. The ladder I built works while the boat is still on the trailer due to the typhoons here I have been unable to test it in the water. If built correctly it works.... why are so many sold if it did not work. I can climb back up on it so much more easier that the rope and slide right in like a snake....can't do that with a rope.

Roger you claim they don't work ( ladders)... but neither does the rope boarding ladders work for some. We still need improvements and for me it works better than the rope...and so far the only way that I can get back in....soon I hope to post pictures of it in the water with me climbing on the boat so you can be a believer. Look below if you think it does not work. Can you throw your left leg up there after making one more step up on the ladder?...Well of course you could.

That is a great Scenario about the boat turning in the wind and sailing away and it may well be true... but if the rope can't help you get in what else is there ...let me tell you if I get a hand on that ladder I will get in no mater how much wind is blowing or how fast the boat wants to sail away...I am not planing to give my ladder up yet. Howard it's your play now....We are all Curious.

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fred4win
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by fred4win »

Thank You Howard... for going the distance on this new break through...I am very excited about it and very Curious also. Ken and I have very large apatite's,,,really need this break through. I don't have much choice except my boarding ladder because I know the rope will not work for me at all....it's possible will not work for some of the other Scmpers also...they should try it out before its needed, or am I the only one that is having trouble with the boarding rope?....Even in calm weather...too old, too fat,,,and too stiff...and maybe too stubborn....I just ask you and Roger to take into consideration that my ladder is off set on the stern and that alone is enough to change the dynamics of the boat sailing away without me boarding. Think about that.

I do see a lot of gray hair in the pictures posted on this forum so I believe many will if not now then later will be like me....I am still in very good health for my age but the years are starting to take a toll on me....I am happy that you have never given up on this improvement of this boarding procedure...I guess all along you have keep it on the back burner....You appear to be confident that you have a great break through and it shows in your posting of it....any thing at all will be welcome and a fantastic improvement...I am sure many of us Scampers will be grateful to you for this break through. Maybe I should give you my Thanks in advance for never giving up.
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kenjamin
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by kenjamin »

One thing that is sort of missing in the discussion about swim ladders is that not all swim ladders are created equal. What I'm talking about building is a very small but very strong ladder that is deployed by pulling one string. It then slides down deep enough into the water to easily get a foot on the bottom step and it waits patiently and steadily without any movement in relation to the stern itself while your foot finds that bottom step. On my boat their are many things to grab hold of at the stern. There are two openings on my transom that make excellent hand holds. There are various loops of rope hanging from the corners as well as the center of the transom. The rudder is there also and one could hang on that as well if one wanted or needed to. One nice thing about having the rudder there if you are boarding from the stern is that you may be able to influence the boat's heading as you board.

Another nice thing about the transom is that when boarding there the boat will not roll towards you like it will coming in from the side. The other thing is that with my ladder deployed, it will act as a water brake and slow progress somewhat if the boat is wanting to sail away. If I remember to release the mainsheet well before I right my SCAMP, that will also discourage my SCAMP from wanting to sail away after righting it. I could also pull the mast out before righting the boat if that were a concern.

From my calculations, in the worst possible situation, my SCAMP could be 1 mph faster than my best swimming but that is with the mainsheet cleated in at the most unfavorable position and the rudder somehow in a fixed, favorable for sailing away position.

Believe me, I will also have some sort of backup system at the sides of my boat that will allow me to also board from the side if, at a particular moment, that is the quicker or easier way (probably using the new break through system).

Most important of all, in my opinion, is having a good knife in a zippered pocket somewhere on your body that can greatly improve your chance of survival. You need to be able to free yourself from any kind of entanglement with lines. And if you have a good knife and some anchor line, you could always fashion something quickly that can aid your reentry into the boat. On my boat, you could grab some anchor line, tie a big loop in it and hang the loop on an oarlock block and you wouldn't even need to cut the line to get back in the boat.

Every captain has to decide what will work best for him or her and the rest of the crew. Having redundant systems and packing a good knife are probably real good ideas. If I find the swim ladder is useless in rough conditions, I'll be the first to admit it and the first to improve it until it is useful. I only ask that you wait to reserve judgement on my swim ladder until you've seen it and tried it out. I can promise you this. It will be a solid part of the transom, strong enough for three hundred pounders, very easily deployed from the water and darn pretty to gaze upon.
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fred4win
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by fred4win »

Yes! Yes! and Yes! you also have me excited about your ladder Ken, and the concept of the way it will work.....and Howard has me on the edge to find out more on whats going on in his breakthrough.....I am so glad to see the Scamp community coming together on these improvements. I always said that the Scamp deserves a better way than just a rope hanging over the side of the gunnel for re-boarding. Maybe you and I can twist Rogers arm some and make him believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Redundancy that is the name of the game. Some ladders work and some don't and same for the rope system....keep at it and that is what we call inventing inventions or just making improvements.

Not to be facetious but (what if) is a great equalizer to activate the brain juices. Roger and Howard have some valid remakes of the problems that can be faced with heavy winds and the Scamp boat wanting to just sail away while trying to board from the rear (stern). Now WHAT IF we put the ladder on the flat part of the nose (bow) of the Scamp. Just think of the pros in doing that and only a few cons like it don't look good up there on the front. Ladder will stay dry up there till needed. The boat will not sail backwards very good with the rudder still hanging down in the stern. Plenty of lines to hang onto up there. You could have a three, four or even a five tier ladder hanging down 6 feet in the water if you need that much help...That is some thing to ponder over...so many possibilities. Plus the buoyancy of the bow is an advantage when boarding from the front, due to the flat nose design of this boat.
Well guys it time for me to get cracking on some more new ideas now. Chow for now.
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kenjamin
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by kenjamin »

Hey Fred,

We both need to keep in mind that Howard has had a lot more experience in sailing small boats in rough conditions than many of us SCAMPers put together. We would be wise to heed his warnings about the boat sailing away after righting it. I will most likely be installing his break through reentry system on my boat.

I've never skinned a cat and never will but I've skinned a lot of squirrels. And yes, there's probably several ways to skin one but to an old experienced hunter, it's more like one way. So we need to keep that in mind as well. Having said all that, if I'm floundering around in the water after a capsize and my little swim ladder is within reach, chances are I'll latch onto it with a death grip and not let it go until I'm inside the boat. I certainly won't be concerned about whose reentry system I use. I'll use the one that's the closest and that I know, from testing, will work best for me in the given moment.

If I have used the offset centerboard to right the boat, I'd probably be using Howard's system because it will be right there at hand. If for some reason, I have to swim to the boat and the stern is the first thing I come to then chances are I'll deploy the ladder. A lot can happen in a few seconds and it's pretty much impossible to predict what those things will be. The best course of action is to be prepared for the worst as much as possible.

When I managed to capsize my Caledonia Yawl, we would have been home an hour sooner if I had just had tied in a bailing bucket on the boat. I'll hopefully never make that mistake again.

Your buddy,
Kenjamin
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by Monies »

Because we intend to do some capsized boats and righting, re-entry exercises at Sail OK 2014 in a couple months (Oct. 8-13) I am VERY much looking forward to the new method Howard has come up with. When we did these before we used the stirrup method of Howards and found it took a lot of tweeking on each individual boat (they were not Scamps) to make it work for a particular individual. I remember some were tall, others shorter, also important.

The flotation, righting, reboarding demos are I think a little sobering to most of our attendees. I know when Mike capsized years ago on the TX 200 every time he got the Cartopper righted, she went back over, and he was much fitter than the average bear, as Yogi Bear used to say. He was rescued with help but you can't count on that.

I would point out the excellent article in SCA about James McMullen and his Caledonian Yawl in the recent issue. I commend James for writing that and SCA for publishing it!

Do I wish Howard would be at Sail OK 2014? Of Course! (He has other commitments of course) Will we try out his method? Absolutely.

Is tying your bucket down important? Yes, it will float away along with any other loose stuff like your PFD and cushions!

Listen to Howard!

Love, Jackie Monies The Red Scamp http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SailOklahoma/
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by pocketyacht »

Jackie
I am working on my schedule and hopefully.................might be able to make it. I am pushing my voyaging SCAMP hard for a September launch and would likely have it with me as I am planning sea trials on the gulf in Texas before it is shipped off out of Houston.
I know I have a home in Oklahoma with you folks and would sorely miss not being there. If I can come is there anything I can offer as an instructor or presenter? I ask only if I might be of some value to your participants.

Please let me know. I'd sure like to see you, Mike and all of our friends.
Best,
howard
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by pocketyacht »

Kenjamin and Fred
Its all about redundancy no matter which method one chooses. I have back ups for back ups on any boat I own and sail.

We all know that no matter how well we are prepared and practiced the real event tends to throw good plans out the window. Being in the water on hard chance with your boat on its side is a very unnatural event and can rattle folks.

Participants in the Skills Weekend were great in that they all practiced (rehearsed) in the classroom, which helped a lot yet when the real deal came most forgot the steps and we had calm controlled conditions.

I "believe" we have a solid self rescue method that can help so many of us. I am writing it now and want to be sure what I write is accurate and defensible. I hate to rush to conclusions but the proof seems to be in the results from last Saturdays Skills Weekend exercise. Very experienced sailors all involved and all delighted and amazed..............still I want to do the hard core high wind testing during my sea trials as I will now rely on this method for a coming voyage I am about to embark on.

Looking forward to sailing with you in a couple of days. We'll also be proofing the new re-entry system this weekend.
Best,
howard
kenjamin wrote:Hey Fred,

We both need to keep in mind that Howard has had a lot more experience in sailing small boats in rough conditions than many of us SCAMPers put together. We would be wise to heed his warnings about the boat sailing away after righting it. I will most likely be installing his break through reentry system on my boat.

I've never skinned a cat and never will but I've skinned a lot of squirrels. And yes, there's probably several ways to skin one but to an old experienced hunter, it's more like one way. So we need to keep that in mind as well. Having said all that, if I'm floundering around in the water after a capsize and my little swim ladder is within reach, chances are I'll latch onto it with a death grip and not let it go until I'm inside the boat. I certainly won't be concerned about whose reentry system I use. I'll use the one that's the closest and that I know, from testing, will work best for me in the given moment.

If I have used the offset centerboard to right the boat, I'd probably be using Howard's system because it will be right there at hand. If for some reason, I have to swim to the boat and the stern is the first thing I come to then chances are I'll deploy the ladder. A lot can happen in a few seconds and it's pretty much impossible to predict what those things will be. The best course of action is to be prepared for the worst as much as possible.

When I managed to capsize my Caledonia Yawl, we would have been home an hour sooner if I had just had tied in a bailing bucket on the boat. I'll hopefully never make that mistake again.

Your buddy,
Kenjamin
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by pocketyacht »

Last thought
The method I have devised is so simple as to seem not realistic, perhaps a real "Duh" moment.
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fred4win
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Re: SCAMP Skills Weekend- Re-Entry method break through

Post by fred4win »

Ken you are so right about Howard's experience and how valuable he is to the Scamp project....I personally would not have it any other way and sure you would not either.......also what he says has so much truth to it after years of experience....

Cat's or squirrels is a way of saying there is more than one way to go to the grand shopping mall. I have eaten many squirrels in my lifetime also... but yet to try the cat out...some things never work out. Where would this world be if we all just accepted Status qua . Just think about the ramifications of not having a cell phone in the world,,,only the land line phone and a slot for your dimes. Or the biggie is... your mast that you built....Why Change?

I am so very anxious for this break through that Howard is talking about...I love to see change in all things...and if the benefit is some thing for the better that is absolutely great. I will also retrofit this in my Scamp as well as the other ideas....Redundancy. Like you say you never know what you will grab hold of in the case of an emergency or what you would do.

The titillation is just painful that other Scampers are aware of this breakthrough and we still don't even get a hint of it....I feel sure that this may very well be a better way than what we had before...You can pick up on the way Howard talks about it in his post....but Howard must be happy to see us salivate over waiting for the description of how it works. Come on Howard give us a tidbit of what you have come up with. :D
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