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Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:34 pm

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While combing through all the topics on this board I noticed Howard's remark that he is building 2 Scamps, one "stock" and the other modified in consultation with John Welsford for blue water voyaging.

I'm curious, Howard, what the two of you have come up with. Not that I plan to do any real blue water sailing myself, but just to see how you would make Scamp more suitable for adventurous cruising.

My own build (#197) is at the point where I need to finalize my hatch layout before things get hard to change. I'm probably over-thinking it, but there's no harm in that, right?



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Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:34 am

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Hi Rob
Good to see you here!
I haven't quite finished the modifications to SCAMP #2 and so for now I will defer to a near future date (when done) to post a few photos or answer questions. Point being is this, the changes I am making are a work in progress, very enjoyable R/D, lots of head scratching this sort of thing.

In the interim is there anything I can do to help you with your hatch placement decisions? If you'd like to set up a phone call to talk about your build I would be glad to help just let me know.

Looking forward to the day when you and I can sail together again.


Rob Hazard wrote:
While combing through all the topics on this board I noticed Howard's remark that he is building 2 Scamps, one "stock" and the other modified in consultation with John Welsford for blue water voyaging.

I'm curious, Howard, what the two of you have come up with. Not that I plan to do any real blue water sailing myself, but just to see how you would make Scamp more suitable for adventurous cruising.

My own build (#197) is at the point where I need to finalize my hatch layout before things get hard to change. I'm probably over-thinking it, but there's no harm in that, right?



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Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:38 pm

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Could we have the hatch placement discussion in this or a new thread? I'll need to think about this soon, also.

Without having thought too much about it, right now I'm thinking
1) one large hatch in each seat to access the area under the seats,
2) one large hatch in sole to access the space between bulkheads 5/6,
3) small square hatch for water ballast. I think I want something more than a small round one there to facilitate cleaning and maintenance of the tank. We are in zebra mussel waters here and I want to be able to scrub that out good.
4) There's storage under the sole between bulkheads 3/4, too. Probably need a way to get at that.
5) And need a couple big ones in bulkhead 3.

Hmmm... That's getting to be a bunch of hatches.

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Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:05 am

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Hey Howard!
I've now done dry assembly of the bulkheads and panels from B-4 aft and am ready to start gluing stuff together.
I made my own oval hatches for B-3 just large enough for me to slide my torso into in case I need to get in there for some reason. I actually cut holes in several pieces of scrap ply to determine the smallest opening that would work.

The thing is, there is so much available volume in this boat that it's tempting to just put hatches everywhere and figure out where to put stuff later. I'd rather put some thought into what stuff should go where and let that determine hatch size and placement.
The huge space forward is easy; the only stuff that'll go there is my sleeping bag, air mattress, and dry clothes. Don't want a lot of weight up there! The hatches are large enough that I shouldn't need to roll up the bag or to even deflate the mattress.

I figure that for sailing trim the heaviest stuff should be concentrated amidships, probably more to the port side since the off-centerboard with its trunk weighs about 40lbs. I'm thinking of water bottles, food, cookstove, etc. This would be stuff that doesn't need to be gotten at in a hurry, so it could be secured so it won't shift. I'm thinking port side seat between B-4 and B-5.

Since every outing seems to begin and end with dock lines and fenders, I'd want a large space where they can be organized for quick access. The long towline would be in there too. For that I was thinking port side B-5 to B-6 with a large Russell Brown hatch if it will fit there.
Another large item to be stowed will be the cockpit tent. I haven't given that much thought so far, but I'm pretty sure it'll be bulky and not easy to scrunch up in a compact bundle.
Anchors; If you have only one it needs to be big enough for overnight security. Maybe a lunch hook and a big boy would be better. The lunch hook could live in a plastic bucket with its rode underneath, Ben Fuller style, tied off against the transom.
The big anchor is more of a problem. Under the sole aft of B-5? A Danforth style anchor would fit under there if you made a big enough hatch.

I agree with WoodnMetalGuy about the ballast tank.

Under the cuddy sole I'd like to put a pair of small RB hatches, but I'm not sure what goes in there yet. Books, flashlight, flat-screen TV…

I know some people have been opening up the holes in B-5 and B-6, but I'm more inclined, if anything, to close them up with plywood covers, to make them independently watertight, just in case Something Very Bad happens.

What else? Oh, it would be nice to have a spot for the VHF radio, the GPS, the foghorn, a water bottle, and a half-eaten sandwich where they're instantly reachable but won't wind up rolling around underfoot.

And the compass! I haven't found the perfect solution for mounting the compass.

Am I over-thinking it yet?

Cheers,
Rob



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Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:10 am

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Hi Rob
embeds below marked***
But first the premise for my comments below: SCAMP was designed as a day sailor/near shore beach cruiser not really suited for open water. I believe some daysailing boats should not be converted for more ambitious sailing away from shore. A few others can be successfully converted. SCAMP is a boat with possibilities if thoughtfully approached.

SCAMP works out nicely as a micro cruiser for my particular type of use. I also believe the changes I have made to #2 are for the most part unnecessary for other SCAMP's.

However any boat can fall on hard chance such as being caught out in a blow, cracking into rocks when landing, banging docks, etc so some of the elements I have incorporated into #2 while seemingly not necessary for daysailing use may be good to have in place just in case. I look forward to posting info on #2 when she is done.

Rob Hazard wrote:
Hey Howard!
I've now done dry assembly of the bulkheads and panels from B-4 aft and am ready to start gluing stuff together.
I made my own oval hatches for B-3 just large enough for me to slide my torso into in case I need to get in there for some reason. I actually cut holes in several pieces of scrap ply to determine the smallest opening that would work.

The thing is, there is so much available volume in this boat that it's tempting to just put hatches everywhere and figure out where to put stuff later. I'd rather put some thought into what stuff should go where and let that determine hatch size and placement.

***This little boat is the largest (most voluminous) 12 footer I have been aboard. Easy to start thinking holes for hatches everywhere but this is really not necessary. You may want to consider opening up bulkheads 6&7 (under the seats) so you can get access through one or two hatches in the seats.

The huge space forward is easy; the only stuff that'll go there is my sleeping bag, air mattress, and dry clothes. Don't want a lot of weight up there! The hatches are large enough that I shouldn't need to roll up the bag or to even deflate the mattress.

***I was fortunate enough to do some of the initial testing or assessment of SCAMP and in this mode I did the first overnight aboard. It was dead of winter (Dec 27th) and the wind chill got down to 10 degrees above zero. During the early pitch black night a snow squall blew up at around force 6 and I had to quickly strike the cockpit tarp and put my sleeping gear away. It was a snap to do as I just stuffed everything without dry bags forward. I hauled the hook and rowed (blown) down wind to a more comfortable anchorage.
Man was I glad to get that tarp re-rigged. Once back inside the cuddy out of the wind I had a great sleep and awoke to a calm snap cold (18 degrees F) morning for a coffee bean roast, hot latte and a delicious breakfast Russell Brown's wife Ashlyn had prepared for me.

I figure that for sailing trim the heaviest stuff should be concentrated amidships, probably more to the port side since the off-centerboard with its trunk weighs about 40lbs.

***You can actually stow evenly on each side as SCAMP sucks up weight without much trim effect. What is more important is where you the sailor sit, there is a sweet spot for optimal trim for each point of sail.

I'm thinking of water bottles, food, cookstove, etc. This would be stuff that doesn't need to be gotten at in a hurry, so it could be secured so it won't shift. I'm thinking port side seat between B-4 and B-5.

Since every outing seems to begin and end with dock lines and fenders, I'd want a large space where they can be organized for quick access. The long towline would be in there too. For that I was thinking port side B-5 to B-6 with a large Russell Brown hatch if it will fit there.
Another large item to be stowed will be the cockpit tent. I haven't given that much thought so far, but I'm pretty sure it'll be bulky and not easy to scrunch up in a compact bundle.

***Rob if you build a tent the right way it should not be very bulky. The one I am building for my use is made of materials that allow me to fold and stow it in quite a small bag.

Anchors; If you have only one it needs to be big enough for overnight security. Maybe a lunch hook and a big boy would be better.

***On my small boats I carry two rigged anchors and carry a light lunch hook.

***SCAMP anchor stowage and deployment deserves its own discussion thread as the boats shape and layout provides a challenge for anchor stowage and especially deployment.

The lunch hook could live in a plastic bucket with its rode underneath, Ben Fuller style, tied off against the transom.
The big anchor is more of a problem. Under the sole aft of B-5? A Danforth style anchor would fit under there if you made a big enough hatch.

I agree with WoodnMetalGuy about the ballast tank.

Under the cuddy sole I'd like to put a pair of small RB hatches, but I'm not sure what goes in there yet. Books, flashlight, flat-screen TV…

***Perhaps a small organ for use in serenading the mermaids you will undoubtedly meet. I get squirmy about putting too many openings in the cockpit sole. Seems a possible long term wear out and leak issue due to hopping in and out of the boat and point loading the hatches.

I know some people have been opening up the holes in B-5 and B-6, but I'm more inclined, if anything, to close them up with plywood covers, to make them independently watertight, just in case Something Very Bad happens.

***I opened mine up because if you think of the buoyancy available in all the other separate compartments you should get a feeling of security. The ease of getting items in and out of these stowage areas (for me) outweighs the notion to enclose each compartment within the seats.

What else? Oh, it would be nice to have a spot for the VHF radio, the GPS, the foghorn, a water bottle, and a half-eaten sandwich where they're instantly reachable but won't wind up rolling around underfoot.

And the compass! I haven't found the perfect solution for mounting the compass.

*** Bulkhead 3.

Am I over-thinking it yet?

***Yep! Good for you. Isn't head scratching and creating the optimal SCAMP based on your vision just good fun? I have really enjoyed working with SCAMP builders kicking around ideas and figuring out my own boat.

***I have created a number of small micro cruisers and I am building SCAMP #2 to reflect all I have learned through building, modifying and sailing my own boats and from sailing so many other small boats.
I have this small window of time off and have been working each day to complete #2 before I fly off for the Pacific. What an enjoyable experience, pure creativity. My vision is SCAMP #2 will be my micro cruiser magnum opus, well at least for my odd/mis directed notions about what's right;-).

I say this because I am not recommending that anyone else make the changes I have made with a couple of small exceptions.

***I recommend keeping SCAMP as close to stock as possible because right off the design sheet she is a fine. OK this said I eat my words since I have modified my boat but the changes I have made are very specific for a place I plan to sail that is all about heavy weather and cold with an ocean passage. However this said I have made the major modifications demountable so I can switch the boat out for one design sailing.

*** Now you gents and ladies in your super light SCAMP's be sure to wave as you pass me and disappear over the horizon as SCAMP #2 is going to be somewhat heavier than other boats due to the elements I have employed in her build. However when it howls hard enough to blow a rooster into a beer bottle #2 should shine.

Best,
howard

Cheers,
Rob


Last edited by pocketyacht on Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:40 pm

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My thoughts on hatch questions and ground tackle stowage. As I understand it an issue that needs to be addressed with R.B type hatches is that a large hatch in a traffic area such as the sole may flex enough to leak some when there is a load on it. I plan to stow my beach anchor and towline under the sole between 5&6. This will require a rather large hatch. I intend to stiffen the sole by adding stringers on each side of the hatch, with plenty of lightening holes and limbers. In addition to stiffening the the sole it will help contain the stowed gear and discourage overloading. If it does leak a little ,the equipment will not be damaged by water.
I am currently building a very narrow well for a small outboard, to be used in adverse tide flows without adequate wind to navigate, a common condition in this area at times. This well does not allow the motor to turn for steering or tilt up. The rudder is for steering and it will only be used in deep water so tilt up is not required. There will be a plug to fair the bottom when the motor is not deployed. This narrow well leaves a large space on each side between the well and the seat stringers for ground tackle stowage. A lunch hook on one side and an heavier anchor with more rode on the other.
The issue I am pondering is how to counter all this extra weight aft. At this point I am thinking of contacting J.W. For advise as others have done, I hope his time is not too costly. I first have to calculate The weights I am adding and I don't have some of the gear yet.

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Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:13 am

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Hi Roger
How much does your engine weigh?
Where will it be stowed when not in use?
What is your guestimate of the materials weight involved in the engine well build?
How many anchors will you keep aft?
What is the weight of the anchor(s) and chain?

mrogers wrote:
My thoughts on hatch questions and ground tackle stowage. As I understand it an issue that needs to be addressed with R.B type hatches is that a large hatch in a traffic area such as the sole may flex enough to leak some when there is a load on it. I plan to stow my beach anchor and towline under the sole between 5&6. This will require a rather large hatch. I intend to stiffen the sole by adding stringers on each side of the hatch, with plenty of lightening holes and limbers. In addition to stiffening the the sole it will help contain the stowed gear and discourage overloading. If it does leak a little ,the equipment will not be damaged by water.
I am currently building a very narrow well for a small outboard, to be used in adverse tide flows without adequate wind to navigate, a common condition in this area at times. This well does not allow the motor to turn for steering or tilt up. The rudder is for steering and it will only be used in deep water so tilt up is not required. There will be a plug to fair the bottom when the motor is not deployed. This narrow well leaves a large space on each side between the well and the seat stringers for ground tackle stowage. A lunch hook on one side and an heavier anchor with more rode on the other.
The issue I am pondering is how to counter all this extra weight aft. At this point I am thinking of contacting J.W. For advise as others have done, I hope his time is not too costly. I first have to calculate The weights I am adding and I don't have some of the gear yet.



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Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:12 pm

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Howard
The wood for the well weighs 4 lbs without epoxy and extends forward about 18” by 8.5”wide My current Tanaka motor weighs 27 lbs, I plan to replace it with a Honda air cooled at 30 lbs.
Ether motor will stow athwart ships in cleats as close to the transom as possible. The Lunch hook that will stow starboard next to the well weighs 12 lbs. The main anchor will stow on the port side and weighs about 20 lbs ( I don't have the chain yet so I'm guessing some.)
The beach anchor and gear weighs 15 lbs and the tow line weighs 6 lbs, both will stow under the sole as close to the aft side of 5 as I can get them.
There will be a Group U-1 Gel-Cell @ 24 lbs probably under the sole aft of 3.
I am planing on moving the bailing wells forward to ahead of the O.B. well on each side. One will have a venturi bailer and the other a rule pump, mostly because I have it, it will work at any hull speed and I will have 12v current aboard anyway. The bailing wells will be cross connected like Simeon's.

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The pleasure I get from a boat is inversely proportional to it's size cost and complexity



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Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:01 am

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Hi Roger
I am quite busy at the moment and will get back to you on this.
howard
mrogers wrote:
Howard
The wood for the well weighs 4 lbs without epoxy and extends forward about 18” by 8.5”wide My current Tanaka motor weighs 27 lbs, I plan to replace it with a Honda air cooled at 30 lbs.
Ether motor will stow athwart ships in cleats as close to the transom as possible. The Lunch hook that will stow starboard next to the well weighs 12 lbs. The main anchor will stow on the port side and weighs about 20 lbs ( I don't have the chain yet so I'm guessing some.)
The beach anchor and gear weighs 15 lbs and the tow line weighs 6 lbs, both will stow under the sole as close to the aft side of 5 as I can get them.
There will be a Group U-1 Gel-Cell @ 24 lbs probably under the sole aft of 3.
I am planing on moving the bailing wells forward to ahead of the O.B. well on each side. One will have a venturi bailer and the other a rule pump, mostly because I have it, it will work at any hull speed and I will have 12v current aboard anyway. The bailing wells will be cross connected like Simeon's.



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Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:08 am

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Howard, you've got me rethinking my bulkhead decision. I'm going out to the barn to sketch the revised openings on B-5 and B-6.
I'm also going to spin off a new topic on anchoring as you suggest. This thread is rapidly widening in scope.



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